Cold Start Engine 'rattle' (1.0)

Faults and Technical chat for the Hyundai Kona
davrob36
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:37 pm
Location: Colchester,Essex UK

Re: Cold Start Engine 'rattle' (1.0)

Post by davrob36 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:47 pm

I keep looking Bart with interest to see what they have done to remedy your fault.
Let's hope they give you a full report of what they have done as very interested been technically minded. Please keep us updated.


BartStilgo
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:31 pm

Re: Cold Start Engine 'rattle' (1.0)

Post by BartStilgo » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:42 pm

Car was delivered back today...….
Emailed the service manager to say the solution is not good enough, there is still a pronounced rattle on start up for around 1-2 seconds and then it settles down. The tick over rattle has gone which is good but there is still and issue before oil pressure gets up to where it should be.

So I expect a call tomorrow from Bristols Streets new service manager and he can have the car back and try again. I'm sure he come up with reasons not to do that but it needs Hyundai to take this seriously and come up with a proper solution rather than just making more room for the chain to thrash around before the oil pressure rises.
Thankfully got rid of the iX20 which was an awful car with an engine with less go than an electric bike.
This is my last Hyundai and my next move is to get an appointment with the branch director and let him have both barrels.


davrob36
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:37 pm
Location: Colchester,Essex UK

Re: Cold Start Engine 'rattle' (1.0)

Post by davrob36 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:04 am

Surely Bart after all the attempts to cure this problem you should be entitled to replacement new vehicle - but problem will the replacement be the same?
After all the trouble you folks are having I have contacted my dealer but they have not had any problems and thank goodness mine is OK at present but am concerned.
You'll have to approach Trading Standards.


BartStilgo
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:31 pm

Re: Cold Start Engine 'rattle' (1.0)

Post by BartStilgo » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:13 am

Welcome back
Been a bit quiet for a few days, and getting frustrated with the car.
The car was returned on Thursday very clean and I ran the engine quickly after the keys were handed back to me. (I demanded the garage pick up and drop off the car as I was fed up of driving the 50 mile round trip to the garage.)
So while at work I moved the car to a different parking place and as I locked the door looked at the drivers side front wing to find the garage had scratched it!
Back on the phone to the garage and then Friday morning another ranting email to the branch director about how after starting the car to go home the noise was exactly the same.
Thursday evening I parked the car at home and used our second car to drive to work on Friday not wanting to drive the Kona anymore.
Yesterday evening (Saturday at 19:00) I went to pick up some friends from the local airport in the Kona, it having sat all Friday when it rained heavily. Pressed the start button and most horrendous noise and it mis-fired. It was the worse it has ever been starting. Once going it was fine but that's not the issue.
I did speak with the service manager on Friday and reported the noise had not been improved and we discussed what if any improvements have been made. Basically none.

Now I work in an engineering company and spoke with one of the experience engineers about it. He said the following
Any engine using a cam chain (rather than a cam belt) with a hydraulic tensioner (one that is dependant on engine oil pressure to tension rather than some mechanical method.) will always suffer from a slack chain until the engine oil pressure rises. The only way to stop this is to fit something like a non return valve so the oil is held in place and cannot return to the engine sump when the car is switched off.
Hyundai are looking for a cheap solution to this so the current fix of altering the shape of the cam chain cover to give more room for the chain to thrash about for a few seconds each time it starts, and this is a car with Start stop, does not and will not resolve the problem they have created for themselves.

Now, I think I have uncovered another problem! Sorry.
Twice my Kona has failed to start correctly after heavy rain.
The first time I pressed the start button and the car engine turned over but failed to fire (no spark to the spark plugs) for around five seconds. Then it was fine. I didn't think much about it
The second time was yesterday. Again after heavy rain and this time the engine mis-fired before it finally got running and was once again ok.
I will be opening this can of worms with the dealer next week.
And will also tell them about the cruise control that wouldn't set!

I am waiting for confirmation of a meeting with the branch director and the new service manager at Bristol Street Hyundai and will at this point do everything in my power to return the car as 'not fit for purpose'. I would advise any of you who have had problems with your Kona do the same. Get a meeting with the top man of the branch and get your thoughts and frustration out and into the open, face to face, telling them exactly what you think. I have requested someone from Hyundai UK but I don't think this will happen. I have two issues to talk about. The first is about the issues with the engine on the car. And thanks to all your response's I know my Kona is not an isolated case and not Hyundai only. That gives us all some strength in our argument. My second point is with the dealer. I have major issues with the dealer who from conversations I've heard have sacked the previous service manager for not doing his job. Hopefully you will not have these issues. Unfortunately the lack of action by the garage while they were trying to sort out their staff meant they did not deal with my problem for six months.

Please keep up the pressure on the dealers and do not put up with the current fix. It doesn't work.
While I was at engineering college (Many many years ago) studying diesel mechanics one of the major concerns of engines was metal particles floating around the engine. It can cause so many problems.

The only fix for this engine is to throw it away. If your cam chain has been grinding little pieces of metal off the casing, then at any time problems can raise their head and do a lot of damage. At the moment the fix has not been sorted by Hyundai who will need to find a proper solution and modify the production line engines being manufactured and then fit a brand new engine to your Kona. Nothing else is acceptable.

Keep up the pressure.


davrob36
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:37 pm
Location: Colchester,Essex UK

Re: Cold Start Engine 'rattle' (1.0)

Post by davrob36 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:28 pm

Well what a story.
What i can't understand is why there should so much slackness in the timing chain to start with because on the long stretches of the chain between the camshaft sprockets and the crankshaft sprocket you have 2 timing chain guides which I assume are not adjustable ? and I would have thought they would have taken up excess slackness in the chain prior to tensioner operating .Perhaps they should modify these guides to take up the excessive slackness but surely an experienced Hyundai Tech should see the problem once the cover is removed?
Having had experience working on Vauxhalls ie. the old Chevette and Viva's prior to the cambelts becoming fashionable I can't understand why this is occurring thou as I have said (fingers crossed) mine is causing no problems. With my experience on Vauxhalls I know the old 3cylinder 1.0ltr engine was always very uneven running on startup and on tickover but I can't remember all the noises that some of you folks are experiencing.
I shall wait to read the next chapter.


mutley
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:53 pm

Re: Cold Start Engine 'rattle' (1.0)

Post by mutley » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:29 pm

hi This repair has obviously not worked if there are no modifications been made by Hyundai on the related parts then i can’t see it working . I think you’re right about the tensioner needing a non-return valve to keep the chain under tension. Is there one and it’s fault and that’s the problem ? Due to work commitments I’ve still been unable to return mine to be looked at , I’m only using my Kona about once a week at the moment . I’ve tried to attach some pictures of the timing chain/cover it would be interesting to know where it’s catching can’t see it being on the longest span as it’s got a guide and arm stopping it? so is it slack on the camshafts gears and catching on the cover there? Thinking about this there is the possibility for the chain to slip causing potentially more engine damage!!

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davrob36
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:37 pm
Location: Colchester,Essex UK

Re: Cold Start Engine 'rattle' (1.0)

Post by davrob36 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:04 pm

Seeing your pictures above (which I have downloaded as well) - I have been comparing them with a Hyundai Workshop Manual which I have on the Hyundai i10 (2015 model) and looking at the standard i.0ltr and comparing they look very much the same - thou I cannot compare part No's I can't say they are exactly the same but they do look very much the same - so getting down to the nitty gritty why is this engine causing problems where i haven't heard of any problems with the i10 with similar engine other than having a turbo fitted?
It would be interesting if anybody from Hyundai or a dealership reads these letters whether they can explain if there are are differences between the two or is it the addition of a turbo that is causing the problem which I thought would be unlikely.
Regarding the note above about the tensioner having a relief valve fitted you must take into consideration that there is a mighty strong spring pushing the tensioner out to start with - or I assume there is going back to my Vauxhall days.


mutley
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:53 pm

Re: Cold Start Engine 'rattle' (1.0)

Post by mutley » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:55 pm

An educated guess is that the engine is the same as the i10 apart from like you said the turbo. I think the i20 and the i30 have the same engine as the Kona. If like we say the timing tensioner is hydraulic it’ll work by oil pressure so I would say there is no spring of significance. Like Bart said I think the oil should be retained in the tensioner to maintain tension on the chain. May be there is a non-return valve and it’s this that’s the fault?
If I remember right Ford 8 value twin cam had an hydraulic chain tensioner and after oil and filter change if you didn’t crank the engine to get oil pressure without it starting the chain could potentially slip. What’s wrong with the good old fashion ratchet chain tensioner it worked and worked well.


davrob36
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:37 pm
Location: Colchester,Essex UK

Re: Cold Start Engine 'rattle' (1.0)

Post by davrob36 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:17 pm

Mutley just a quick reply - it is tensioned by spring as you have hold tensioner in before refitting and releasing by inserting a pin into the tensioner body and removing pin when fitted.
Perhaps Bart may come up with more info.


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